DP Owner is a Cookie Stuffer?!?!

[Rob_TID]

Just found this piece of news:

How to Make Money ? Blog Archive ? DigitalPoint Owner Shawn Hogan gets sued by Ebay

Now, I am reserving my judgement cos usually people with this much experience in the industry know that cookie stuffing is not cool.

If, on the other hand, he actually did do this, then what can I say?

 

[Linda Buquet]

I've been researching the story and working on a blog about it all day.
When you dig in there's a lot to it. I may post a couple links in this thread later.

 

[Linda Buquet]

I was going to hold the story til tomorrow morning but decided to blog it today.

There's a ton of info here. I'm still researching and will probably continue to add to this story.

Reportedly eBay is suing 3 affiliates for cookie stuffing and fraud they allegedly committed through Commission Junction from 2003 - 2007. One of the defendants is pretty high profile and is someone many of you out there know! <strong>Shawn Hogan, the owner of Digital Point Forums</strong>.

<strong>For the blackhatters out there that say "cookie stuffing isn't illegal and all is fair in love and affiliate marketing" - I say you better take a very close look at this case!</strong>

I've been researching the story which was first thought to be clever link bait but now appears to be true. I've found legal documents that support the story and are much too detailed to be created for link bait. Here is the 1st report I found about it this morning.

<strong><a href="http://www.charlesgmullen.com/08-27-2008/ebay-files-lawsuit-against-cookie-stuffers/">eBay Files Lawsuit Against Cookie Stuffers</a></strong> - "Three men defrauded eBay in a "cookie stuffing" scheme that made it appear the men's companies should be paid commissions, eBay claims in Federal Court. It sued Shawn Hogan and Digital Point Solutions, Todd Dunning and Kessler's Flying Circus, and Brian Dunning and Thunderwood Holdings."

That blog references a news story here: <a href="http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/08/26/eBay_Sues_Alleged_Cookie_Stuffers_.htm">eBay Sues Alleged 'Cookie Stuffers'</a>.

Here are all the <a href="http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-candce/case_no-5:2008cv04052/case_id-206526/">Federal District Court filings</a>

<strong>Here are a couple of choice quotes from the court filing (PDF below). There were 6 charges filed including mail fraud, wire fraud, racketeering and violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. </strong>(DPS stands for Digital Point Solutions - KFC stands for Kessler's Flying Circus)

<strong><a href="http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2008cv04052/206526/1/">PDF of Court Filing 8/25/08</a></strong>.

<strong>Nature of Suit: Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations
(See RICO Act in comment #1 for seriousness of these charges)</strong>

"24. eBay is informed and believes and, on that basis, alleges that DPS and KFC each ccomplished their cookie stuffing through software programs and/or code that, unbeknownst to the user, redirected the user's computer to the eBay website without the user actually clicking on an eBay advertisement link, or even becoming aware that they had left the page they were previously viewing. As a result, the eBay site would be
prompted to drop an eBay cookie on the user's computer even though the user never clicked on an eBay advertisement or even realized that their computer had ever visited the eBay site"

44. The members of the Hogan Group and Dunning Group each committed multiple violations of the predicate act of mail and wire fraud, 18 U.S.C. $ 1343, through their cookie stuffing schemes. Specifically, schemes to defraud eBay existed by which the members of the Hogan Group and Dunning Group each stuffed eBay cookies onto computers for the purpose of defrauding eBay of commission fees due only for legitimate
Revenue Actions associated with a given affiliate.

<strong>There's a 7 page thread at DigitalPoint Forum: <a href="http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=1000740">Shawn Hogan (Owner of DP) Is Getting Sued For Cooking Stuffing</a></strong> So far Shawn has neither had the thread closed or replied. But he has not posted on his own forum since April, so not sure what's up with that.

It sounds to me like what they were accused of doing, at least in part, is this black hat cookie stuffing method I blogged about recently. <strong><a href="http://affiliate-blogs.5staraffiliateprograms.com/1526/affiliate-cookie-stuffing-forum-trick.html">Warning - New Affiliate Cookie Stuffing Forum Trick - Stealing Sales</a></strong>. I still am getting several inquiries a week from worried forum owners who want to find out how the black hatters are doing this particular cookie stuffing method. And just this week ironically I was discussing the problem over at the eBay EPN affiliate forum.

I've been doing some research on some black hat forums and reading about some of the new cookie stuffing scripts I'm finding popping in various places. These black hat programs are getting pretty sophisticated and have all kinds of options built in to try to help avoid detection.

We have to remember innocent until proven guilty. Shawn et al have not gone to court yet. <strong>But since eBay just dropped 300 affiliates and some say that at least part of those were cookie stuffing, you have to wonder if they are using this suit to send a warning, make an example and set a precedence. I hope it works and they scare some cookie stuffers into changing their ways.</strong>

<strong>UPDATE: 8/29</strong> I just hate it when I get so mad on a forum I <strong><font color="red">TYPE IN BIG RED BOLD CAPS!!!</font></strong>
<a href="http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/7187-incredible-custom-cookie-stuffing-script-truly-unique.html">INCREDIBLE Custom Cookie Stuffing Script - Truly Unique!</a>
Sorry dude that Dan and I took your cookie-stuffing sales thread off topic!

 

[Rob_TID]

Gonna be following this one.

A fairly prominent affiliate marketer who released an ebook in the last few days actually suggest cookie stuffiing in the ebook!!!!

I think we are losing this battle.

 

[Linda Buquet]

Rob, the poor guy in your link in the top post has had a crashed site for quite awhile.
Wonder if all the Diggs brought his server down?

"Fatal Error - If you are the owner of this site please check that MySQL is running properly and all tables are error free."

 

[Rob_TID]

Haha, I am sure this is getting some pretty big coverage.

 

[Linda Buquet]

Whoa, was just researching the RICO Act. These are some heavy duty charges!

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (commonly referred to as RICO Act or RICO) is a United States federal law that provides for extended penalties for criminal acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization.

Under RICO, a person who is a member of an enterprise that has committed any two of 35 crimes?27 federal crimes and 8 state crimes?within a 10-year period can be charged with racketeering. Those found guilty of racketeering can be fined up to $25,000 and/or sentenced to 20 years in prison per racketeering count. In addition, the racketeer must forfeit all ill-gotten gains and interest in any business gained through a pattern of "racketeering activity." RICO also permits a private individual harmed by the actions of such an enterprise to file a civil suit; if successful, the individual can collect treble damages.

 

[Edwin]

RICO is certainly serious stuff, that's John Gotti serious type of stuff! - the stuff that can get you in prison for yearsssssss.

I don't have to time to read up on it, but i strongly doubt Shawn is willfully involved in this type of stuff.

 

[Linda Buquet]

Ya Edwin, I made sure to say "allegedly" and "innocent until proven guilty" in my blog.

However after reading all the legal docs in detail and since I know a lot about cookie stuffing in forums because we've had it happen here and I've done lots of research about it for my blog... well the methods they hint at him using are the same ones that I've been researching and the same ones LOTS of affiliates have been using. I just feel like if there was kinda sorta a breach of TOS or if he did something just a little gray, they would not bother with a suit much less pack it with 6 hefty and very serious charges. They would just slap him with a warning or expire him. But again who knows and I guess the courts will decide.

 

[Oregon Coast Guy]

It's just mind-boggling how unethical people can be! It's make our jobs all the more difficult.

If they are guilty, I hope they all get sent to the federal pound-you-in-the-*** prison (thanks, Office Space!).

Just as a side-note, I don't care for DP (even though I go there sometimes). It seems predominantly made up of people either promoting and using black-hat or people who haven't a clue, wanting to get in on that "get rich quick" crap.

It's a forum that gives me bad vibes.

Tony

 

[Edwin]

Quite a development for sure.

Imagine a conviction to be put into action, Shawn hanging out in the yard with other convicts:

Convict: What are you in for bro?
Shawn: They slapped the RICO act on me.
Convict: Organized crime huh?
Shawn: Nah, i'm doing time for cookie stuffing.

Convict: (Pick on emoticon, surely one will apply! )

 

[Oregon Coast Guy]

After perusing that thread and reading all of the losers saying how cool cookie stuffing, black-hat and out-right theft is, I've had it with DP!

I'm not going back. Thieves suck!

Tony

 

[Linda Buquet]

Ya I couldn't take it any more. That thread over there is sometimes laughable but mainly really sad.
I finally had to post and blast 'em just a little.

I didn't realize until now that was you I was talking to Tony. Recognized the avatar, but I was so mad I wasn't thinking straight. I guess we were posting at the same time - oh and great minds think alike!

I'm glad a few people that know what they are talking about are starting to weigh in on how wrong this is!

Edwin -

 

[Linda Buquet]

Couple things I'm curious about, so I'll bring them up here where we can have a sensible conversation.

1) I've been over at the eBay forum for about a week reading threads about all the affiliates they dropped (300 or so). Plus have been involved in an eBay cookie stuffing discussion there.

So I keep watching to see what folks over there have to say about this. I can't believe no one has started a discussion about it??? Maybe someone has and it's been deleted since this is a legal case???

2) Curious too about the number they use. $5,000??? Someone like Shawn would sneeze at 5,000 a month - much less 5,000 total. If 3 of them were doing this for a period of 4 years and only made 5K it would not even be worth it. Would not be worth even taking a risk for 5K a month. I've heard Shawn talk about how much he makes and it's HUGE. So truly 5 k is nothing. Plus if some of the alleged stuffing was on DP with the traffic they have I'm sure a killing was made.

I've seen some speculation that eBay used a small number so that unethical people would not think "they made THAT much? I need to learn to stuff cookies!"

And for eBay to even bother if it was only 5K, I think for that amount they would just can the affiliate. There's a bunch of people doing a lot more cookie stuffing than 5K on ebay.

 

[Oregon Coast Guy]

I didn't realize until now that was you I was talking to Tony. Recognized the avatar, but I was so mad I wasn't thinking straight. I guess we were posting at the same time - oh and great minds think alike!

Yup, that was me. I just cannot believe the people standing up for a criminal act!

 

[whiskymac]

terrible

nothing worse than cookie stuffing, think not then gimme your addres and I'll send you one of Mrs Macs.

whiskymac.

 

[Rob_TID]

Yup, that was me. I just cannot believe the people standing up for a criminal act!

This is the thing. I have had this argument on several forums and blogs. I always lose.

So I have just given up.

 

[Niche48]

Hang on a minute, let's not hang this dude till he is found guilty, if he is guilty
Anyone can through allegations at any of us.

I would like to think that if I were in Shawn's position, i would get some support from the community and not an assumption of guilt

Cookie stuffing is a no-no and I cannot imagine why the owner of digital point would compromise his business so adversely by doing black hat

That is just counter-intuitive

 

[Edwin]

Nobody in this thread is saying Shawn is guilty by default, Linda just blogs about the story and has provided the information she has obtained that provides more details concerning the background of this case.

 

[Oregon Coast Guy]

Agreed. I'm not saying he's guilty.

I'm saying that people, in general, who would do that are despicable.

Also, if you look through the thread, many of those people are not supporting Shawn, but the act itself. They're saying it's cool and that theft of commissions is an awesome thing.

They're pretty dense over there. They support the stealing of commissions and many of them are or want to be affiliate marketers. DUH!!